Curse

Stockholm · Aug 05, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, people can like Ursan...

But in balance issues and with reasons riding against it, liking something has absolutely no bearing on why it should or shouldn't be balanced.

Because GW has been soooo balanced since Factions came out? and now all of a sudden it have to be fixed? because a few think their fortunes and titles are being diminished by this "uber skill" that actually takes a full team to be effective, where as many other skills make it possible for a single person and hero to "run" dungons in HM that was meant for 8 player teams, talk about something that needs nerfing. That in my opinion is overpowerd and needs nerfing big time.

AncientLord · Aug 05, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

It's offical know. Ursan will be nerfed. If you dont believe me, ask developers ingame.

glacialphoenix · Aug 05, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientLord

It's offical know. Ursan will be nerfed. If you dont believe me, ask developers ingame.

Yeah, it will be. I'm going to see some really big QQ fireworks in GW - it's horribly tempting to go sit in Umbral just to see how outraged people get.

joshuarodger · Aug 05, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

"Just because it's one persons way of having fun and you dont have fun while you use it doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

it should be nerfed because it turns HM into EZ Mode. it's imbalanced. it doesn't fit into the original framework of the game. skill is better than time, except where ursan is involved. a noob who got the game a month ago and can't leave any outpost without UB can be just as effective, if not moreso, as someone with 3+ years of experience, and can run any skill bar effeciently, due to this one skill.

sure it allows all classes to fit into a group but who is out there spamming "looking for 60 AL R9+ Ursan"? no one. if you make a group and have a choice between 80 AL warrior and 60 AL mesmer, the mes will still be excluded. and don't tell me that no one is spamming LF 80AL ursan, because they are.

AncientLord · Aug 05, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Yeah, it will be. I'm going to see some really big QQ fireworks in GW - it's horribly tempting to go sit in Umbral just to see how outraged people get.

Me also, speacly noobs who wont be able to do fow with their "real" characters

Tyla · Aug 05, 2008, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Because GW has been soooo balanced since Factions came out? and now all of a sudden it have to be fixed? because a few think their fortunes and titles are being diminished by this "uber skill" that actually takes a full team to be effective, where as many other skills make it possible for a single person and hero to "run" dungons in HM that was meant for 8 player teams, talk about something that needs nerfing. That in my opinion is overpowerd and needs nerfing big time.

Ursan is the most overpowered thing in this game, and wasn't introduced until GW:EN.

I'm not saying there has been perfect balance, because there never will be. The thing is, as Guild Wars progressed through time...

Guild Wars Factions brought shadowsepping and instagibs to the game.
Nightfall brought out extremely powerful skills and 2 broken classes.
GW:EN brought Ursan and other imbalanced skills that are beyond what we had.

Stockholm · Aug 05, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient Lord

Me also, speacly noobs who wont be able to do now with their "real" characters

I hope you don't mind that I use this as a quote when I write to NC-Soft? (Will use anyway)
It so perfectly illustrates the situation in GW today (and I mean it in a negative way).

JupiterStarWarrior · Aug 05, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I've an idea (I have been thinking about this for a week now). I posted it on my Talk page on the official wiki (which bears the same name as my Guru account):

I've been thinking on this. Ursan Blessing is a decent-enough skill, but I've seen complaints that it's been abused in pick up groups and newer players just getting into the game (which means that they at least made it far enough to get to Level 10 or more, get to Eye of the North, gain the Norn as allies, complete the quest required to gain the skill, and get to at least Rank 8 to use it effectively). Well, I agree that newer players should be able to use it, but in the pick up groups, it's kind of mean of other players to discriminate other useful professions (meaning only those who has Norn Rank 8 or above can be allowed in the group). Although I haven't yet found a way to do so, my suggestion is quite simple: have Ursan Blessing be used by only one player in the entire party. This will solve the headaches of those wanting to join pick up groups who find it annoying to find "LFG 1 R10 Ursan", which, admittedly, is very annoying indeed. Instead, promote balance in the group, and say "LFG 1 Interrupt Mesmer" or "LFG 1 Energy denial Mesmer" (okay, so I'm partial to Mesmers).

The way this can be implemented is an hierarchical system that would allow the user on the top-most of the list get priority for the skill "Ursan Blessing". For example, you have this group (I'm using my own characters' names here):

Me/Mo 20 Dk Jsw
Mo/Me 20 Jup The Healer
W/Mo 20 Jupiter S Warrior
...

Let's say Dk Jsw forms a group, but has Ursan Blessing equipped. Let's also say that Jupiter S Warrior, who has Ursan Blessing as well, joins the group. Jupiter S Warrior's Ursan Blessing would be taken off the Skill Bar, giving the sole slot of Ursan Blessing to Dk Jsw.

Well, let's also say, using the above party group example, that Dk Jsw takes off Ursan Blessing. This allows Jupiter S Warrior to equip Ursan Blessing. But, what if Jup The Healer (for some god-awful reason) equips Ursan Blessing while Jupiter S Warrior have it equipped? Well, if Jup The Healer equips it, well nothing would happen because there can only be one Ursan Blessing on all the skill bars in any party (well, nothing but a message stating that the skill is already in use).

Let's say Spirit Deathknight (D/Mo 20) wants to join, and she's equipped with Ursan Blessing. Well, she would be put on the bottom of the list, and Ursan Blessing would be removed from her skill bar.

This way, you got yourself a decent skill without compromising teamwork and balance. There could be ways of abusing it as well, and there could still be complaints about it, but that's going to happen no matter what happens.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 06, 2008, 09:46 AM // 09:46

The main thing with ursan is that it isn't on its own a very imbalanced skill, one ursan in the team isn't all that great. The problem with ursan is that it is unblockable, unremovable, and synergizes with itself, so that with five ursans in the team (or three with quickening zephyr) you get near 100% damage mitigation because the enemy is perma-knockdowned. With only one ursan in the team the skill would rarely see any use at all.

Another problem with ursan is that it's purpose-made for bad players. It's a skill specifically created to let people who are unable to create or copy a working build play the role of 'mad rusher wammo on steroids' in the elite areas. It penalizes skillful play, like creating builds, managing aggro, and pulling, and rewards blind rushing. There is no thinking involved when playing ursan, as the ursan skills have no cost and do not form combos you simply target nearest and use all skills on recharge.

And it is based on grind. You will not get to r10 norn without hours of repetitive grinding.

Basically Ursan is the exact opposite of everything Guild Wars once claimed to be: grind-less and skill-based.

That's why people hate it. Personally I find it offensive that ANet thought PvE players at all wanted a skill like that.

On the other hand, people love it because it lets them farm hardmode elite areas quickly and easily by simply mashing buttons, and without caring about build, managing aggro, or pulling, proving that ANet was right.

AncientLord · Aug 06, 2008, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

The main thing with ursan is that it isn't on its own a very imbalanced skill, one ursan in the team isn't all that great. The problem with ursan is that it is unblockable, unremovable, and synergizes with itself, so that with five ursans in the team (or three with quickening zephyr) you get near 100% damage mitigation because the enemy is perma-knockdowned. With only one ursan in the team the skill would rarely see any use at all.

Another problem with ursan is that it's purpose-made for bad players. It's a skill specifically created to let people who are unable to create or copy a working build play the role of 'mad rusher wammo on steroids' in the elite areas. It penalizes skillful play, like creating builds, managing aggro, and pulling, and rewards blind rushing. There is no thinking involved when playing ursan, as the ursan skills have no cost and do not form combos you simply target nearest and use all skills on recharge.

And it is based on grind. You will not get to r10 norn without hours of repetitive grinding.

Basically Ursan is the exact opposite of everything Guild Wars once claimed to be: grind-less and skill-based.

That's why people hate it. Personally I find it offensive that ANet thought PvE players at all wanted a skill like that.

On the other hand, people love it because it lets them farm hardmode elite areas quickly and easily by simply mashing buttons, and without caring about build, managing aggro, or pulling, proving that ANet was right.

This post needs to be given to a developer of ANet. Let them think a bit about these words.

Hyper Cutter · Aug 06, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

I said it before and I'll say it again, Anet won't nerf Ursan as long as it encourages PUGs (which it does). Their near-fanatical interest in doing so (as seen most obviously by their stubborn refusal to remove the hero cap) seems to trump all else...

Aurora Nightskye · Aug 08, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

It's officially been nurfed

joshuarodger · Aug 08, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

I said it before and I'll say it again, Anet won't nerf Ursan as long as it encourages PUGs (which it does). Their near-fanatical interest in doing so (as seen most obviously by their stubborn refusal to remove the hero cap) seems to trump all else...

their "stubborn refusal to remove the hero cap" is to encourage more player to player interaction. that's what this game is supposed to be about in the first place.

Gumby · Aug 08, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aurora Nightskye

It's officially been nurfed

Is it nerfed enough tho?

Keero89 · Aug 08, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Well, I think it's up there now with Mending power-wise, needs moar nurf.

R.Shayne · Aug 08, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

their "stubborn refusal to remove the hero cap" is to encourage more player to player interaction. that's what this game is supposed to be about in the first place.

Read the back on the prophecies box and a little thing about Henchmen and something about a single player game too.

Sin City Gamer · Aug 08, 2008, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I would like to thank everyone for thier contributions to the discussion, and thanks to ANet for listening to BOTH sides of the debate.

After today's update, I think it is clear that ANet took us seriously and made the right move by changing not only UB, but lots of over-powered PvE only skills. And I think the updates to siad skills are (for the most part) very well thought out, and don't really nerf anything into the ground. I haven't had a chance to log-in and test the changes yet, but on paper they look good. I might actually start using Ursan now as it looks like there is quite a bit of thinking that goes along with its use in updated form.

Also, fair warning, everyone who agreed with the UB update, get ready to tell the people who told us to quit QQing to enjoy the taste of thier own medicine... No flaming though, please. Let them have thier moment just as much as we had ours.

cellardweller · Aug 08, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Can we have an open letter to regarding consumbles now?

Sin City Gamer · Aug 08, 2008, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Can we have an open letter to regarding consumbles now?

lol

I would write one, but I haven't used them enough to make a valid argument. Maybe I should go test those after testing the new updates...

Ramnor · Aug 08, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

So it's only a game but an interesting concept reduce the effectivness of a weapon of war to improve the economy of a Country. Sounds right to me and probably not as stupid as it sounds....